Source: Jack Reacts | Mormon Stories Interview | The Atonement VS Lucifer's Plan Channel: The Stick of Joseph Published: September 26, 2024 | Archived: June 26, 2026
Video: Jack Reacts | Mormon Stories Interview | The Atonement VS Lucifer's Plan
Channel: The Stick of Joseph
Published: September 26, 2024
Duration: 18:59
Views: 22,922
Category: Education
Video ID: R1azetnkKTo
Description
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In this episode, Jackson reacts to the recent interview that the Paul brother’s did on Mormon Stories podcast. The clip in question is about John’s proposition that the Atonement of Jesus Christ is insidious in nature and that he has a better solution.
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Transcript — YouTube panel (human-authored)
0:00 and even the teaching of the need for an atonement we all have positive feelings about Jesus but it's act the atonement is actually an Insidious Doctrine when he said that if you're a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of lday saints bells are going off in your head I see the atonement of Jesus Christ as one of the most beautiful doctrines that exists on planet Earth also if you watch the 5 hours and 47 minutes please keep a Ticker on how many times Hayden used the word conceptualize you want a scenario where there isn't AJ for our actions it's just everyone is saved independent of whatever mistakes they made however that's only when you divorce the fact that what it did for us was allow us to overcome sin and guess what Jesus triumphed over all of that on the third day he rose from the grave welcome ladies and gentlemen back to another edition of Jack reacts this time it is beard Edition I'm I actually
1:00 lost my Razor for 3 days and then I'm like wait my face actually grows hair this is awesome and so now we're 3 weeks in and people have to ask me if I'm actually myself it's funny we went to a wedding in Montana a couple uh weeks ago and I had four people come up to me and be like I had to ask someone else if that was you because I couldn't recognize you so turns out I actually am a man and have testosterone in my body so cool to find that out today we're going to be talking about uh our Mormon stories interview many of you may have seen that we went on John delin show Mormon stories uh who just to disclaimer if you've never heard about Mormon stories before he he is someone that has lost his faith in the restore Gospel of Jesus Christ and is not someone that is pro the Church of Jesus Christ of latterday Saints and the fact that I've tried to make this video several times now I I've come across the fact that since it's 6 hours long there's no way that I can cover all that I want to cover in just one Jack react so I see us making
2:06 several of these videos in the future but the exchange in which I want to talk about today was one in which we had about the doctrine of the atonement of Jesus Christ my goal in showing you these concerning ideas these things that I find extremely troubling is so that you can kind of see where people that are criticizing the church are coming from uh I have no interest at all in attacking John doin as a person I actually came away from this interview with a completely different perspective on John delin as a child of God and I don't think that he's malicious in his intents obviously we disagree heavily on a lot of main important ideas and that's why we wanted to go on and and ask questions to understand where he's coming from but this video is in no way a effort to disparage or smear John dein at all just want to talk about the ideas so the exchange that we're going to be talking about today is in regards to a statement that he made a little bit ago
3:11 but it was one of my first exposures to the content that he produces and that's his perspective on the atonement of Jesus Christ now I see the atonement of Jesus Christ as one of the most beautiful doctrines that exists on planet Earth the fact that I don't have to be defined by my past mistakes and errors and that through Jesus Christ I can be become a new creature and I can essentially be redeemed for the things that I do wrong and it's a beautiful thing that I can be forgiven and also I can have the capacity to forgive others I I personally think it's so beautiful and that's just a little snippet of what the atonement of Jesus Christ encompasses um there's so much more to it but but it's very interesting to see the perspective that he has on it and I I called him out for a video that he did and we're going to watch that that snippet in which I was referring to it's from a video that he did a couple years ago and this is this is the the FR and this is the comments that he made about
4:22 the atonement of Jesus Christ it's uh here on 2 hours 25 minutes and 32 seconds and even the teaching of the need for an atonement we all have positive feelings about Jesus but it's act the atonement is actually an Insidious Doctrine because it's all based on a deficit model of your Brokenness and you're needing someone to to make you clean and to make you whole right and and that's complicated because we we always think positive things about the idea of sin or of Jesus but these teachings can actually be very Insidious they can yeah so if you're like me and have a completely 180 degree view on the atonement of Jesus Christ then that might be very troubling for you to hear and so I wanted to ask him about this I wanted to get his takes on this because if he's saying that the atonement of Jesus Christ the idea of that being the way in which we return back to our Heavenly Father and overcome sin and death right because that's the two things that the atonement of Jesus Christ overcame was
5:30 death physical death with the resurrection all men will resurrect and spiritual death being separated from God sin and so I asked John dein I said okay you obviously think that there's a better way seeing that you're saying that this is Insidious in nature and so then this is the exchange that follows I'm saying John you're sitting in the chair you're criticizing the doctrine of the atonement of Jesus Christ obviously saying it's not good so you have a better solution I got a better solution it's the way I deal with my children when my children goof up I don't go oh Winston you screwed up let me punish Maya really bad because Maya's more good let me punish Maya really bad and then you can pray to me through Maya and receive forgiveness for what you've done because Maya suffered for you no what I do is I say hey Winston Hey listen you just punched your sister in the face how do you think that made her
6:34 feel you teach you instruct you you make it a learning opportunity you develop empathy with them and then hopefully over time they develop the desire and the conviction to not punch their sister anymore so it's a learning opportunity it's not a punish one to support the other guilt and shame parad I think where he was getting to is the idea of justice and mercy and Mercy both have to be satisfied and somewhere is putting a rule on the universe above no that that's it's not God says there's no such thing as God says okay there's there's what a bunch of dudes wrote oftentimes Generations after just right there I just wanted to stop where he he's coming from a place that he gives zero value Divine value to the scriptures so in John's model of the atonement he sees it as there's no really Justice and mercy it's just all Mercy whenever someone does something wrong and he gives the example of a little kid doing something and not
7:37 yet understanding he doesn't really talk about what if someone understands that something's bad but does it anyway but he he basically explains it's a doctrine of learning right and then we're like okay so all mercy no justice so then Hayden does something really good where he kind of summarizes and checks standing with John and what he says is is pretty interesting you want a scenario where there isn't a Justice for our actions it's just everyone is saved independent of whatever mistakes they may make sure that sounds better than punishing an innocent person when he said that obviously you know if you're a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of latterday saints and you've read the pearl of great price before bells are going off in your head oh I've I've heard something similar to this before and we we tell John where this idea originated from want to say before we get into that what you just conceptualized is not the first time that's been conceptualized of course also if you
8:50 watch the 5 hours and 47 minute please keep a Ticker on how many times Hayden used the word conceptualize uh and I'll I'll smack him in the face for each time because it was like over 20 when like there's a very clear conceptualization of that in notor uh so Lucifer so so I'm not trying to callar idea from the very from the very beginning the argument was this I want everyone to be saved not a soul will be lost but wasn't the idea taking taking away um Satan's idea was to take away people's freedom of choice well how do you take away people's freedom of choice is it by forcing them or is it by getting rid of what I was Tau when so his reaction there was that of someone that essentially quoted Lucifer without realizing it to go to where that is found in the book of Moses we have here in Moses chapter 4 and the title heading is how Satan became the devil he tempts Eve Adam and Eve fall and death enters into the world so we learn here essentially about Satan's proposition of
10:06 the how things should work after uh the idea of the atonement is is put forth and it says here in verse one it says and he came before me saying behold here am I send me I will be thy son and I will redeem all mankind that one Soul shall not be lost and surely I will do it wherefore give me thine honor and then in verse three it says wherefore because that Satan rebelled against me and sought to destroy the agency of man which I the Lord God had given him and also that I should give unto him mine own power by the power of my only begotten I caus that he would be cast down so we have here the idea being put forth that is not new in the slightest no this is not a the fact that Lucifer is presenting this in the very beginning of time saying look why do we have to have this idea of atonement and like justice and mercy and good and bad let's just make it so everyone is saved regardless of anything
11:15 and then God said because you wanted to destroy the agency of man you are cast down and if you really think about it how do you how do you destroy the agency of man okay so we have good and bad we have the ability to choose between these two things but if you just take away bad and all you have is good then you really have no good you just have one thing there is no choice does that make sense and so a lot of times this idea of taking away agency is putting your thumb on someone and forcing them to do good however as as you kind of see how Satan works there's an awesome verse in the book of there's an awesome verse in the Book of Mormon that kind of expounds SS upon this idea and it's in 2 Nephi 2:13 it says and if ye shall say there is no law you shall say there is no sin and if you shall say there is no sin you shall also say there is no righteousness and if there be no righteousness there be no happiness and if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery and if these things are not there
12:23 is no God and if there is no God we are not neither neither the Earth for there could have been no cre creation of things neither to act nor to be acted upon wherefore All Things Must Have vanished away now I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I understand the whole grand scheme of Eternity and why there are Eternal laws and you know we read verses in the Book of Mormon like if God does a certain thing he will cease to be God denoting that there are Eternal laws that need to be abided by however it's just so interesting to me that these non-original ideas are still being put forth in 2024 that all mankind should just be saved there should be no justice or consequence for actions but everyone should just be saved and we have no need for an atonement because that idea is Insidious in nature and going back to John's example of teaching a kid when in this instance Winston punches Maya yeah
13:25 that is how you do with a child if they don't know what they're doing is wrong then you teach them and hopefully they begin to understand what is right however what happens when Winston grows up and he continues to punch people or he starts stealing things or even you know harms someone physically is there no should there be no justice in that should we just keep explaining the same thing over and over and over that it's not good to do that at what point does Justice get served for the incorrect actions of someone else because as much as we would like to believe that every human has the best intentions in the world sometimes people do things wrong knowing that it's wrong and so what the atonement of Jesus Christ does it allows for both Mercy Mercy and Justice to be served and if you have any questions about the relation between those there's an amazing sermon a a little lesson given in Alma 41 uh or sorry Alma 4 2 where Alma is
14:31 talking to one of his sons and just to give you a teaser of what this lesson is about he says and now my son I perceive that there is somewhat more which doth worry your mind which you cannot understand which is concerning the justice of God in the punishment of The Sinner for ye do suppose that it is Injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery and so he goes in to what what the relationship between Justice and mercy is and it it's just an amazing lesson so if you have questions about that go and read Alma 42 it's amazing now I can't fully recollect what it was like when Jesus said here am I send me however from everything that I can read in the Scriptures it doesn't seem like Heavenly Father forcing Jesus Christ to go through this and one of the verses in which I don't see that type of attitude towards the Aton is in the New Testament in Hebrews 12: 2 um Paul says looking unto Jesus
15:37 the author and finisher of our faith who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross despising the shame and is set down at the right hand of the Throne of God now Hayden makes an analogy in this interview talking about how you know things of a divine nature can be compared to child birth where if you look at the objective facts of it it's pretty messy and bad and you know doesn't sound like a great idea and that's only if you ignore the Divine product of it a child being born into the world now if you look at the objective facts of the atonement of Jesus Christ totally separating the divin the Divine aspect from it yeah it sounds terrible torturing having a Son of God being tortured and bleeding from every poor and then having Nails driven through his hands and his feet and being put on a cross like that that's terrible that's awful however that's only when you divorce the fact that what it did
16:42 for us was allow us to overcome sin and guess what Jesus triumphed over all of that on the third day he rose from the grave he rose from the tomb he did not get conquered by these things that were inflicted upon him he championed over him the victory was one instead of focusing on the the messiness of it and totally ignoring the things that it allowed for us to do and the fact that he won the victory over the Cross by rising from the tomb let us focus on the things that it has enabled us to do to overcome our mistakes and to be free from the things that we do wrong if we turn to Jesus Christ and put our faith and trust in him and so closing I just want to end on some of the most beautiful words in the Book of Mormon in regards for the need for an atonement in 2 Nephi chapter 2 it says but behold all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things Adam fell that men might be and men are
17:50 that they might have joy and the Messiah cometh in the fullness of time that he may redeem the children of men from the fall and because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever knowing good from Evil to act for themselves and not to be acted upon Save It Be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day according to the Commandments which God hath given wherefore men are free according to the Flesh and all things are given them which are expedient unto man and they are free to choose Liberty and eternal life through the great mediator of all men or to choose captivity and death according to the Captivity and power of the devil for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself and I thank God every single day for sending his only begotten son that we might overcome our sin and mistakes to one day enter back into his presence and I hope that you can see the beauty
18:52 in that as well until next time stay curious and hungry